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Reply: 7 Wonders: Cities:: General:: Re: architect cabinet : an overpowered card

March 27, 2013, 3:31 am
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by bprevas

Boojie wrote:

To clarify, is it true that the Architect's Cabinet does NOT allow you to build the second phase of Petra for free?


Reason: The icon on the card is a brown/grey circle. It means only brown or grey resources. Therefore, not coins, as required by Petra.

Similarly, the cities cards that let you duplicate a resource or pick a resource you dont produce use the same symbol and only consider your brown or grey production cards, not your yellow resource-producing cards.
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Reply: 7 Wonders: Cities:: General:: Re: architect cabinet : an overpowered card

March 27, 2013, 12:47 pm
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by I Eat Tables

The only card I'd say is overpowered is the Builder's Guild. It's usually worth 8 or 9 VPs, almost always at least 7, and if you compare to other cards giving those kinds of VPs, it's much cheaper.

Lots of other cards are extremely strong with many wonders (Gizah Arena = 8 VPs for example), but none are so universally strong for just about every Wonder as Builder's Guild.
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Thread: 7 Wonders: Cities:: Rules:: debt token sepulche cenotaph and buildersunion

March 28, 2013, 9:16 am
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by GamePali


Fellow 7 wonders fans,
In the rulebook is stated that the broken coin symbol means that the other players (those who did not play the card) need to pay the mentioned amount of coins and/or take debt.Howerver. Is this rule applicable only to the following cards: hideout, lair and brotherhood; or is the debttoken rule also applicable to the sepulche, cenotaph and buildersunion (coin for respectivally every victory token or stagewonder finished).Or does these last three cards only mean pay the ammount if possible?
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Reply: 7 Wonders: Cities:: Rules:: Re: debt token sepulche cenotaph and buildersunion

March 28, 2013, 9:35 am
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by ryudoowaru

GamePali wrote:


Fellow 7 wonders fans,
In the rulebook is stated that the broken coin symbol means that the other players (those who did not play the card) need to pay the mentioned amount of coins and/or take debt.Howerver. Is this rule applicable only to the following cards: hideout, lair and brotherhood; or is the debttoken rule also applicable to the sepulche, cenotaph and buildersunion (coin for respectivally every victory token or stagewonder finished).Or does these last three cards only mean pay the ammount if possible?
If the symbol is on the card -- which it is -- then all the rules that apply to that symbol apply when the card is put into play.
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Reply: 7 Wonders: Cities:: Rules:: Re: debt token sepulche cenotaph and buildersunion

March 28, 2013, 9:39 am
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by ackmondual

GamePali wrote:


Fellow 7 wonders fans,
In the rulebook is stated that the broken coin symbol means that the other players (those who did not play the card) need to pay the mentioned amount of coins and/or take debt.Howerver. Is this rule applicable only to the following cards: hideout, lair and brotherhood; or is the debttoken rule also applicable to the sepulche, cenotaph and buildersunion (coin for respectivally every victory token or stagewonder finished).Or does these last three cards only mean pay the ammount if possible?
If you don't have the full amount, then you take a -1 value in debt for each coin you can't pay. If you do have any or all of the $$, you can choose any combination of paying the full amount, or taking a debt for each coin that you don't pay.
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Reply: 7 Wonders: Cities:: Rules:: Re: debt token sepulche cenotaph and buildersunion

March 28, 2013, 10:23 am
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by GamePali

Thanks for the clear and quick responses.

I was confused because the 'broken coin' symbol and the wonder/victory symbols are mixed in the sepulche, cenotaph and buildersunion; and the rules explicatally mention the debt tokens only when the broken coin symbol are not mixed with other symbols ( hideout, lair and brotherhood).



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Reply: 7 Wonders: Cities:: Rules:: Re: debt token sepulche cenotaph and buildersunion

March 28, 2013, 1:12 pm
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by ryudoowaru

GamePali wrote:

I was confused because the 'broken coin' symbol and the wonder/victory symbols are mixed in the sepulche, cenotaph and buildersunion; and the rules explicatally mention the debt tokens only when the broken coin symbol are not mixed with other symbols ( hideout, lair and brotherhood).
I'm sorry, but you're either mistaken (or, at the very least, reading far more into the rules than are there) or are the victim of a translation error.

The English rules are as follows (where :gg: represents the debt symbol):
A card with the :gg: symbol causes a loss of coins to all of the opponents of the player who has put this card in play.
Each opponent must pay the corresponding amount to the bank or take a Debt token for each unpaid coin. It’s possible to split this up, meaning pay part of it in coins and take Debt tokens for the remainder.
At the end of the game, each Debt token causes a loss of victory points for the player who has them.

Clarification :
- the player who puts a card that causes a monetary loss in play is never affected by that card.
- the coins lost by the players are paid to the bank.
- the debts incurred cannot be paid back
As you can see, nowhere in those rules does it specify that the :gg: symbol must not be combined with any other symbols.
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Reply: 7 Wonders: Cities:: Rules:: Re: debt token sepulche cenotaph and buildersunion

March 29, 2013, 3:12 am
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Reply: 7 Wonders: Cities:: Rules:: Re: Question about the Secret Warehouse and Age I double resources

March 31, 2013, 9:25 am
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by Darador

Reid666 wrote:

Clarifications I've got from Antoine via GeekMail:

1. If you choose to produce a Stone from a "double" brown card, Secret Warhouse produce a Stone

2. If you have a WOOD/STONE card, the Black Market cannot produce neither


This doesn't make any sense and is not supported by the wording of the printed rules at all! :(
And I took the time to check the rules for this in French, English and German to eliminate the possibility of any translation error - there seems to be none.

If Antoine really wants it to be played this way, he would need to change the official wording of the rules - this passed on message (which doesn't even include the wording of the questions to Antoine) doesn't suffice to be an official rule at all, as it pretty much directly contradicts the printed rules.

So I hope there was a misunderstanding involved or he answered it too quickly.
Antoine, I would kindly ask you to reconsider your answer! :)

The rules sound like they are meant like Woelf and aitrus interpreted them above, i. e. that "produce" is different from "able to produce" and that for both Secret Warehouse and Black Market it is relevant what was actually produced (and that the production potential of the brown either/or cards from age I is irrelevant).

Alternatively, it would also be possible (but less intuitive) to interpret the wording of the rules so that to the contrary, what is relevant for both Secret Warehouse and Black Market is the production potential. So if that would have been Antoine's answer, that would be fine.

But I think there is absolutely no way the printed wording can be interpreted so that actual production is relevant for the Secret Warehouse and production potential for the Black Market. The pictograms on the cards don't change anything about that. It just doesn't make any sense whatsoever unless I am completely missing something crucial.

I will keep on playing the interpretation of Woelf and aitrus above until there is something more official saying otherwise.
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Reply: 7 Wonders: Cities:: Rules:: Re: Question about the Secret Warehouse and Age I double resources

March 31, 2013, 9:42 am
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by lfisher

Darador wrote:

Reid666 wrote:

Clarifications I've got from Antoine via GeekMail:

1. If you choose to produce a Stone from a "double" brown card, Secret Warhouse produce a Stone

2. If you have a WOOD/STONE card, the Black Market cannot produce neither


This doesn't make any sense and is not supported by the wording of the printed rules at all! :(
And I took the time to check the rules for this in French, English and German to eliminate the possibility of any translation error - there seems to be none.

If Antoine really wants it to be played this way, he would need to change the official wording of the rules - this passed on message (which doesn't even include the wording of the questions to Antoine) doesn't suffice to be an official rule at all, as it pretty much directly contradicts the printed rules.

So I hope there was a misunderstanding involved or he answered it too quickly.
Antoine, I would kindly ask you to reconsider your answer! :)

The rules sound like they are meant like Woelf and aitrus interpreted them above, i. e. that "produce" is different from "able to produce" and that for both Secret Warehouse and Black Market it is relevant what was actually produced (and that the production potential of the brown either/or cards from age I is irrelevant).

Alternatively, it would also be possible (but less intuitive) to interpret the wording of the rules so that to the contrary, what is relevant for both Secret Warehouse and Black Market is the production potential. So if that would have been Antoine's answer, that would be fine.

But I think there is absolutely no way the printed wording can be interpreted so that actual production is relevant for the Secret Warehouse and production potential for the Black Market. The pictograms on the cards don't change anything about that. It just doesn't make any sense whatsoever unless I am completely missing something crucial.

I will keep on playing the interpretation of Woelf and aitrus above until there is something more official saying otherwise.


I can see how the wording may be slightly confusing, but it seems pretty clear that the intent is not to allow you produce illegally.

If you produce something, warehouse gives you two.

For something you are unable to produce, you may get one from black market.
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Reply: 7 Wonders: Cities:: Rules:: Re: Question about the Secret Warehouse and Age I double resources

March 31, 2013, 9:56 am
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by Darador

lfisher wrote:


If you produce something, warehouse gives you two.

For something you are unable to produce, you may get one from black market.


You are restating what the quote attributed to Antoine said, but you fail to give a reason why or how this could be derived from the wording of the official rules for Secret Warehouse and Black Market.

The rules for both refer to what a city "produces", not what it is able to produce. As I said, I might be convinced that "produces" actually means "can produce" in both cases. But I fail to see any reason why it could mean "produce" for the one card and "can produce" for the other card.
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Reply: 7 Wonders: Cities:: Rules:: Re: Question about the Secret Warehouse and Age I double resources

March 31, 2013, 9:57 am
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by Darador

lfisher wrote:


I can see how the wording may be slightly confusing, but it seems pretty clear that the intent is not to allow you produce illegally.


I don't know what you mean here, can you elaborate please?
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Reply: 7 Wonders: Cities:: Rules:: Re: Question about the Secret Warehouse and Age I double resources

March 31, 2013, 10:19 am
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by lfisher

Darador wrote:

lfisher wrote:


I can see how the wording may be slightly confusing, but it seems pretty clear that the intent is not to allow you produce illegally.


I don't know what you mean here, can you elaborate please?


The icon is very clear that you can't produce two different things from the warehouse. What is it exactly that you are contending?
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Reply: 7 Wonders: Cities:: Rules:: Re: Question about the Secret Warehouse and Age I double resources

March 31, 2013, 10:37 am
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by Darador

lfisher wrote:


The icon is very clear that you can't produce two different things from the warehouse. What is it exactly that you are contending?


I think I have been very clear about that, please read any of my above two postings (the first is more elaborate, the second more consise).
No offense :), but you don't seem to really have done that - your remark about the icon is pretty irrelevant for what I have written.
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Reply: 7 Wonders: Cities:: Rules:: Re: Question about the Secret Warehouse and Age I double resources

March 31, 2013, 10:49 am
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by lfisher

Darador wrote:

lfisher wrote:


The icon is very clear that you can't produce two different things from the warehouse. What is it exactly that you are contending?


I think I have been very clear about that, please read any of my above two postings (the first is more elaborate, the second more consise).
No offense :), but you don't seem to really have done that - your remark about the icon is pretty irrelevant for what I have written.


There are also answers here:
[thread=10633528][/thread]

If you are simply saying that the clarification in the rulebook could be worded better, than sure.

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Reply: 7 Wonders: Cities:: Rules:: Re: Question about the Secret Warehouse and Age I double resources

March 31, 2013, 4:58 pm
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by Reid666

@Dorado

Well, rules, as written in English rulebook, were a bit confusing to me, is it "actually produces" or "can produce". So I asked Antoine via GeekMail and I've got those clarifications.

At first I was a bit suprised by them, it doesn't make sense to have 2 different rullings, especially if there is same wording in rulebook, does it?

But here is the point that was already mentioned by Lee Fisher: Icons and intent, if we forget a bit about logic and unclear wording in rulebook and focus on author's intent and meaning of symbols we get something like this:

Secret Warehouse - it gives you second resource of a kind that you already decided to produce by use of brown and grey cards (or wonder).

Black Market - it gives you a resource you don't have access to by use of brown/grey cards (or wonder).



Here is relevant part of response I've got from Antoine after asking this question. Maybe I've made some mistake or was unclear, my English is far from perfect, feel free to review:

Subject: Re:Some 7W:Cities rules question
Reid666 wrote:

In short - what can we do in this 2 situations:


1.Secret Warehouse and Timber Yard in play. I choose STONE for Timber Yard. What can I choose for Secret Warehouse?

A.WOOD
B.WOOD or STONE


2.Black Market and Timber Yard in play (nothing else). I choose STONE for Timber Yard. What can I choose for Black Market?

A.Anything except STONE (that includes WOOD)
B.Anything except STONE and WOOD




1. If you choose to produce a Stone from a "double" brown card, Secret Warhouse produce a Stone

2. If you have a WOOD/STONE card, the Black Market cannot produce neither

...
...

Antoine
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Reply: 7 Wonders: Cities:: Rules:: Re: Question about the Secret Warehouse and Age I double resources

March 31, 2013, 5:28 pm
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by Darador

Reid666, just to avoid any misunderstanding: My posting was in no way meant as a criticism of you, it was a good thing that you tried to get an official ruling from Antoine regarding this IMO quite important question! :)

Reid666 wrote:


At first I was a bit suprised by them, it doesn't make sense to have 2 different rullings, especially if there is same wording in rulebook, does it?


No, it does not. Not at all to me...

Reid666 wrote:


But here is the point that was already mentioned by Lee Fisher: Icons and intent, if we forget a bit about logic and unclear wording in rulebook


Well, I don't want to forget about the wording of the rules... ;)
The printed rules *do* matter! (Unless they are changed by an official erratum, of course.)

Reid666 wrote:


Here is relevant part of response I've got from Antoine after asking this question. Maybe I've made some mistake or was unclear, my English is far from perfect, feel free to review:


Thanks for sharing! :)
I did notice one relevant mistake in your question: The answer 1A should have read "STONE", not "WOOD".
However, I would say that didn't cause Antoine's weird answer as he corrected the mistake himself in it.
I would say the rest of your question was worded unambiguously, so that shouldn't be the problem.

However, you didn't mention how the combination of the answers 1A and 2B interprets the word "produce" differently for both cards and thus doesn't look like a good option at all.
Which is why my assumption would be that Antoine answered this question too quickly and didn't really think it through and might change his mind about it once he does.
Or he did mean it, but then he should really change the wording of the rules with an erratum or addendum IMO... ;) Or at least elaborate on it himself here.
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Reply: 7 Wonders: Cities:: Rules:: Re: Question about the Secret Warehouse and Age I double resources

March 31, 2013, 5:56 pm
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by SlebRittie

mathstuf wrote:

SlebRittie wrote:

mathstuf wrote:

That's a double negative. I assume it is "can produce neither" (or, alternatively, "cannot produce either").


FWIW double negatives are grammatically correct in French.


I understand that it makes sense, but for rules explanation (in English), double negatives should be avoided since reducing confusion is, ostensibly, one of the goals. And in this case, it was actually an error.


To be clear, what I was saying is that in French, you often negate something with a double negative. It's the same in Spanish. For example, if you were to say nobody is present, you might say something that transliterates to "There isn't nobody here," even though in English this is an error. I just thought it might be useful information to people trying to divine the intent of an informal email dashed off by someone not speaking his probable first language.

To the poster above who thinks this contradicts the rules; I haven't seen a print copy of this game in months, but it was the 7wonders: cities rulebook that made me realize that this was how the cards worked. I'd have to see the exact wording again to be sure, but I thought it was pretty clear at the time.
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Reply: 7 Wonders: Cities:: Rules:: Re: Question about the Secret Warehouse and Age I double resources

April 1, 2013, 6:24 am
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by Darador

SlebRittie wrote:


To the poster above who thinks this contradicts the rules; I haven't seen a print copy of this game in months, but it was the 7wonders: cities rulebook that made me realize that this was how the cards worked. I'd have to see the exact wording again to be sure, but I thought it was pretty clear at the time.


You can find a PDF of the Cities rulebook here (*click*).

The relevant sections are:

P. 7 of the rulebook on Secret Warehouse wrote:


Each turn, the card produces a resource of the player’s choice from among those that their city already produces through its brown and gray cards or the initial resource of their board.
Clarification: the Secret Warehouse doesn’t allow players to double the production on yellow, white, or black cards (Forum, Caravansary, Bilkis and Black Market).


P. 7 of the rulebook on Black Market wrote:


Each turn, the card produces one resource of the player’s choice from among those that their city doesn’t produce through the use of its brown and gray cards or the initial resource of their board.
Clarification: the resources produced by the yellow, white and black cards aren’t taken into account.


If you can tell me how you can read the interpretation in Antoine's message out of that, that would be great! :)
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Reply: 7 Wonders: Cities:: General:: Re: 7 Wonders: Armada Playtest summary

April 2, 2013, 11:26 am
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by CygnusBlack

You said that almost the Armada cards have to be payed by coins, and you saw some card (you didn't said if only light blue) for take coins. I don't understand how you can pay the Armada cards and next a Leader if you can't gain more money, unless you luckily find other coins card that you can play before the Armada phase (I mean for example more yellow cards).
So, I don't undertand how you can play Armada cards without gain more coins before the Armada phase.
(note my perfect english :D)
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